Comments on: Spectator Worship http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/ "I have come to see with greater and greater clearness that consistent Christianity - the only thoroughly biblical Christianity - is found in the Reformed faith." - J. Gresham Machen Sun, 15 Nov 2009 02:19:55 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Rich http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/#comment-25 Rich Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:26:35 +0000 http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/?p=116#comment-25 I absolutely agree with you. When I made that statement I, in no way, meant that that type of song could ever or should ever replace the preaching of the Word of God. I will say, however, that the gospel can (and should) be proclaimed through song! Whether it is the congregation singing or an individual singer. As far as the Regulative Principle goes I find that this does not go against it in the least. We find throughout Scripture an individual singing before the congregation of people. Moses, David. There were even assigned Temple singers. I think that the Revivalist period can be looked at as a giant wrecking ball that burst into congregational worship. You are dead on in your assessment. Not only is there "special music" but just take a look through a hymnal around the middle 1800's through middle 1900's and you can see the amazing shift from God centered songs to songs of self-expression. "I walk through the garden alone..." not to mention an overwhelming amount of horrid Arminian theology thrown into the mix! "The Savior is waiting to enter your heart, why don't you let him come in?" I think we're looking at different sides of the same coin! Sorry for my long responses. It's actually a breath of fresh air to talk to someone about real issues dealing with worship, rather than whether or not Fannie May likes the drums or not! I absolutely agree with you. When I made that statement I, in no way, meant that that type of song could ever or should ever replace the preaching of the Word of God. I will say, however, that the gospel can (and should) be proclaimed through song! Whether it is the congregation singing or an individual singer. As far as the Regulative Principle goes I find that this does not go against it in the least. We find throughout Scripture an individual singing before the congregation of people. Moses, David. There were even assigned Temple singers.

I think that the Revivalist period can be looked at as a giant wrecking ball that burst into congregational worship. You are dead on in your assessment. Not only is there “special music” but just take a look through a hymnal around the middle 1800’s through middle 1900’s and you can see the amazing shift from God centered songs to songs of self-expression. “I walk through the garden alone…” not to mention an overwhelming amount of horrid Arminian theology thrown into the mix! “The Savior is waiting to enter your heart, why don’t you let him come in?”

I think we’re looking at different sides of the same coin!

Sorry for my long responses. It’s actually a breath of fresh air to talk to someone about real issues dealing with worship, rather than whether or not Fannie May likes the drums or not!

]]> By: danborvan http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/#comment-24 danborvan Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:20:42 +0000 http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/?p=116#comment-24 Hi Rich, You bring up some interesting points. First, I must commend you for not using opportunities to sing in church as performance venues. I am also pleased that you thoughtfully choose songs in order to proclaim the gospel. I must disagree however, with the statement that a song can benefit/encourage/convict its hearers as would a good sermon. Let me say that I am definitely in favor of singing. We are commanded in Ephesians 5:19 to address “one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart.” Singing though is not confessed to be a means of grace, unlike the preaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments. Faith proceeds, “From the Holy Ghost, who works faith in our hearts by the preaching of the gospel, and confirms it by the use of the sacraments” (Heidelberg A65). Also, the issue for me is not about singing in general, but who is doing the singing? Like I mentioned in the post, the Regulative Principle of Worship states that we can only worship in the manner that God has prescribed in His Word. This is divided into three categories: Word, Sacraments, and Prayer. Singing is definitely to be included in the service under the category of prayer. But the singing is to be done by the congregation, not by soloists or choirs. I am not an expert in this area, but it is my understanding that “special music” is a product of Revivalism of the 18th and 19th centuries. Before that, congregational singing was the only kind of singing in Protestant churches. They saw choirs as popish elements to be banished from the church. In the Medieval Roman Church, the majority of people did not sing, especially women. The singing was done for the most part by monks in Latin. The congregation was reduced to spectators. The Reformers rejected this and re-introduced congregational singing into the churches. So why have we gone back to Rome and turned the congregation into an audience? Hi Rich,
You bring up some interesting points. First, I must commend you for not using opportunities to sing in church as performance venues. I am also pleased that you thoughtfully choose songs in order to proclaim the gospel.
I must disagree however, with the statement that a song can benefit/encourage/convict its hearers as would a good sermon. Let me say that I am definitely in favor of singing. We are commanded in Ephesians 5:19 to address “one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart.” Singing though is not confessed to be a means of grace, unlike the preaching of the gospel and the administration of the sacraments. Faith proceeds, “From the Holy Ghost, who works faith in our hearts by the preaching of the gospel, and confirms it by the use of the sacraments” (Heidelberg A65).
Also, the issue for me is not about singing in general, but who is doing the singing? Like I mentioned in the post, the Regulative Principle of Worship states that we can only worship in the manner that God has prescribed in His Word. This is divided into three categories: Word, Sacraments, and Prayer. Singing is definitely to be included in the service under the category of prayer. But the singing is to be done by the congregation, not by soloists or choirs.
I am not an expert in this area, but it is my understanding that “special music” is a product of Revivalism of the 18th and 19th centuries. Before that, congregational singing was the only kind of singing in Protestant churches. They saw choirs as popish elements to be banished from the church. In the Medieval Roman Church, the majority of people did not sing, especially women. The singing was done for the most part by monks in Latin. The congregation was reduced to spectators. The Reformers rejected this and re-introduced congregational singing into the churches. So why have we gone back to Rome and turned the congregation into an audience?

]]> By: Rich http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/#comment-20 Rich Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:32:51 +0000 http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/?p=116#comment-20 Dan, I enjoyed you post very much. I grew up in (and still attend) a church where there was a soloist, duet, etc. every Sunday and I have heard my share of "clap offerings." As a child I didn't think twice about it, but as I matured in the faith I could tell something was wrong with the way it was being handled. I think that there are two sides to this coin. First of all, I totally agree with you that it is wrong for a soloist/whateverist being transformed into a performer for the congregation to watch like American Idol. BUT there is also the case in which a song benefits/encourages/convicts it's hearers as would a good sermon. Now granted, it can be a fine line but I believe that there are people who are gifted in this area to do this and that worship leaders (or whoever selects the soloists) MUST be held accountable for why there is a solo, who sings the solo, and what the content of the song is. As a musician and former worship leader I am often asked to do a solo. I fully agree with Martin Luther that music is the handmaiden to theology, and whenever I am asked to sing I use it as an opportunity, not to show off my talents, but to use them in order to convey the gospel. I choose songs for a purpose and on more than one occasion, not only did the (clappy) congregation not clap, but not even a whispered 'Amen' could be heard. I take that and am comforted that the message was put forth and not just a good tune. That being said, if I were asked to sing every week I would immediately reject it. The preaching of the Word is central and the singing of the whole congregation is vital. Dan,
I enjoyed you post very much. I grew up in (and still attend) a church where there was a soloist, duet, etc. every Sunday and I have heard my share of “clap offerings.” As a child I didn’t think twice about it, but as I matured in the faith I could tell something was wrong with the way it was being handled.

I think that there are two sides to this coin. First of all, I totally agree with you that it is wrong for a soloist/whateverist being transformed into a performer for the congregation to watch like American Idol. BUT there is also the case in which a song benefits/encourages/convicts it’s hearers as would a good sermon. Now granted, it can be a fine line but I believe that there are people who are gifted in this area to do this and that worship leaders (or whoever selects the soloists) MUST be held accountable for why there is a solo, who sings the solo, and what the content of the song is.

As a musician and former worship leader I am often asked to do a solo. I fully agree with Martin Luther that music is the handmaiden to theology, and whenever I am asked to sing I use it as an opportunity, not to show off my talents, but to use them in order to convey the gospel. I choose songs for a purpose and on more than one occasion, not only did the (clappy) congregation not clap, but not even a whispered ‘Amen’ could be heard. I take that and am comforted that the message was put forth and not just a good tune.

That being said, if I were asked to sing every week I would immediately reject it. The preaching of the Word is central and the singing of the whole congregation is vital.

]]> By: Jared http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/#comment-18 Jared Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:03:03 +0000 http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/?p=116#comment-18 "More Cowbell," The more we make worship look like the world the less otherworldly it becomes, great post!! “More Cowbell,”
The more we make worship look like the world the less otherworldly it becomes, great post!!

]]> By: Danny Hyde http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/#comment-17 Danny Hyde Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:55:11 +0000 http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/?p=116#comment-17 So what you're saying is that the "clap offering" isn't an element of worship? Anyways, now you now why we have no "offertory" music, choirs, or solos at OURC. So what you’re saying is that the “clap offering” isn’t an element of worship?

Anyways, now you now why we have no “offertory” music, choirs, or solos at OURC.

]]> By: R. Scott Clark http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/spectator-worship/#comment-16 R. Scott Clark Mon, 11 Aug 2008 02:19:06 +0000 http://genevaredux.wordpress.com/?p=116#comment-16 Great stuff Dan! Great stuff Dan!

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